Sundar Pichai 如何为 AI 时代重塑谷歌｜Decoder

So a lot of my initial energy was to go set that up. One AI team uh we had worldclass uh research teams in uh brain and uh deep mind bringing that together as Google deep mind uh you know which was uh you know harder than it sounds because it's like saying go put Stanford and MIT together and create a department out of it >> uh uh or a university out of it. So I think doing that well and then at that time I also set up uh with with Amin Vadat who's our SVP of AI infrastructure now uh um a centralized infrastructure team uh which is which has paid great dividends and then another evolution was realizing we need a chief AI architect to kind of architect this technology across Google and Cororai uh you know taking on that role as well.

So those were important changes. uh we obviously you know made sure search needed to move faster so search was split across many leaders so pulling it under uh Elizabeth Reed uh with Nick Fox uh being responsible for the overall area uh Josh Woodward uh coming to uh help with uh help with our uh labs product and uh working on Gemini later driving innovation as well as you know obviously have extraordinary uh leaders in the company other leaders like Philip Schindler who runs all our operations and so on.

So it is stepping back and end to end uh thinking about the structure and make sure we set up well for this moment where we need to move faster as a company which meant we need needed to make faster decisions. I I set up these new product reviews uh once a week. Um these were you know they were AI product reviews making sure we are intentful about how we apply this technology where we apply them uh and and wanted to review everything firsthand that anything to do with AI which we were shipping to users went through that uh channel and I spent time directly with uh whoever was working on it.

>> Yeah. The other decoder question I ask everybody is about decisions. You're describing a lot of big decisions some of them uncomfortable as you change people around. How do you make decisions? What's your framework? >> A big part of my framework is over time understanding that uh there are very very few decisions which are really consequential and most decisions aren't. So what matters much more is that you make the decision because that's what determines the velocity of an organization.

And so the more you're able to make those decisions and keep the company moving forward, you're generally better off. Of course, there are a few decisions like combining uh and setting up Google deep mine. Uh you know, those are more consequential and you want to take your time deliberating and doing it. Um but a lot of decision making is about just making them and and so the more you're able to do that, you you do develop over time uh some some pattern matching and you know some intuition for you've seen a version of the problem before.

And so I think it's good to rely on that and and separate the signal from the noise so that the signal is that this is a really important decision and you want to really deliberate around it versus this is just you know it may look big but it is more a normal course of action you need to take. >> Yeah. Um looking around the industry uh your peers in big tech have some of the wildest org chart ideas I've ever heard in my entire life.

I think Meta wants to have 50 engineers report to a single manager with the power of agents. Uh Jack Dorsey at Block wants all 6,000 people to report to him. Are you having similar thoughts that you should invent some of the craziest org charts with AI ever? Uh look, I I think leaders and people are incredibly important and I think our companies it depends on what the company some companies are, you know, have a much more narrower suite of products and so you know different structure may work when you're running something at the scale of like take the scale of Google cloud right I think it's important that there is a CEO in charge and you know we are serving all the top enterprises in the world at a scale uh you know and uh so how do you how do you set up for that So I think I think I think great leaders end up mattering a lot like we have Thomas there.

So I do think I think think about it but what I do think about it is how how are we using AI more effectively and we've seen the transition internally particularly amongst our developers where we have transitioned from using AI tools to assist coding to you know them a portion of the engineers working directing teams of agents effectively more and more and so I think those are those are transitions underway and I think that will flow beyond just engineering bring into the rest of the organization.

It's it's already happening like even the work we are doing in Gemini Spark is to give that superpower to the hands of consumers what you can do with these agentic uh workflows etc. So I'm more focused on making sure we are actually deploying that capability in a native way and that it's working well because for us it's more than just making the company efficient because it's the products we provide to others right so I look at it with a very different lens how we do it internally is what we are giving to users outside we use anti-gravity internally like that's what we're providing outside uh so the agents in anti-gravity is what our developers are using And so that's what we are trying to put outside.

So it has that extra dimension to it. >> The number one question listeners want me to start asking CEOs. I just ask it straightforwardly. How close is AI to replacing you as the CEO? >> Uh no I uh it is today you know still I just think the CEO job is not uh that complicated right you know it is uh it is not complicated. There's a big uh there are aspects of it where I think it's going to be very very helpful in terms of decision-m I joke around that uh partially joke around which is like I have to spend a lot of time allocating compute and I'm like well that seems like the AI is going to make more rational choices over time uh because I deal with a lot of appeals and emotions as part of working through a process like that.

So I think you look everywhere what I see and which maybe a bit different to how I think I think done correctly these tools are going to kind of allow us to operate at the next level in everything we are doing like you know it's not like you won't do what you were doing before you will start from a higher foundation uh I wasn't there when like I don't know spreadsheets rolled out to companies right and like I it's almost I have to go think back how did people do all this financial analysis this before, right?

And and I'm sure it changed over a period of 3 to four years fundamentally and we got used to it. I think agents etc is a version of it. Uh it's not like you're not going to plan birthday parties. Uh it is just that you know what you let's say you're planning a trip somewhere. Maybe you're actually spending your time thinking about the actual things you want to do with your time versus chasing opening times and how to get tickets and and so on.

So I think it elevates everything to a different different foundation is how I think about it. >> Let me ask you about that and and agents some of those demos are fascinating. The idea that the search is going to build custom software for everybody that seems like a an idea in software engineering a first impression, right? the idea that the computer you're going to ask it a question and the response will be for it to make you software that helps you get to an answer.

I'm fascinated by this idea, but that is fundamentally changing search. And then you kind of look at Gemini Spark, which is your agent platform in the cloud where you you're at you will say, "Go book me some tickets and Spark might run around and book you some tickets or do some tasks for you." And then there's anti-gravity that agentic coding platform. [snorts] Broadly, every year there's like a new paradigm for AI, right?

There was LMS first and then maybe we're going to chain some LM together. Then there's reasoning and then now we're agents. Is this the foundation or is there another paradigm shift to come? >> I think it's a great question. You know, we are laying most of the building blocks in uh place. I think I think um you know fundamentally being able to reason use tools and code you know are a lot of like you know uh having intelligence and reasoning being able to plan being able to look up things use tools and if you need as part of that to build something so you are kind of laying all the primitives and and obviously anti-gravity is for devel developers but the anti-gravity engine the harness is built into uh a Gemini now right and and you know spark is just a mode of Gemini over time it's a feature we're positioning it but you know it's just a tab within Gemini and so you're bringing that agentic hardness users don't need to think about developers will understand it over time in Spark they can code powerful things uh but but as users you may be building something, creating something, planning a trip and all that is working uh behind the scenes.

So I do think we are uh you know laying a lot of the uh uh uh primitives of uh what what we need agents to work end to end or more importantly AI to work you know this longunning vision of assistant we have all had and worked through myriad forms of it and you know and uh and failing to fully do it well I think we are closer than ever before to deliver on that promise we haven't delivered it yet uh you know but that's the that's the uh Uh that's the journey which I think is closer than ever before.

>> I look at all the the products and they they do seem like they should converge, right? You have the new intelligence search box and I I definitely want to talk about search in more detail, but you look at that search box and then you look at it's canvas that makes you the apps uh you're planning a wedding and it'll just make you an app to help you plan a trip or a wedding or something. And then you have Spark where it can go off and do things.

And I looked at that and I was talking to people yesterday and it just seems obvious that that should be one product. it you know it will the the agents just like I gave the earlier notebook example of like you know you're creating notebooks what are notebooks you're effectively putting all the context you want in one place and then working off it uh it's folders as they've always existed in uh in for people and and you know notebook should be a consistent primitive across the Google products you use I just view agents that way uh it shouldn't matter uh and so I do think when you're at earlier stage of innovation you create the capability I think teams uh are are experimenting with it >> but for a user over time if you fire off planning a trip it should work uh across both places is how I would think about it you're right in that >> uh there's something very important about Google search it is a source of truth for people for however many years decades now the go google it and you'll get an answer and that answer is the same for you and me generally has been a very important idea like it's I think a fixture in the culture.

Maybe Google is the last company saying it will just tell you the truth out of all the companies out there. Okay, we're gonna infinitely personalize the search box. We're going to infinitely personalize the search experience and we're all going to get different answers to to queries. We're all going to maybe even look at different interfaces depending on what we're asking, what our personal context is, how much data Google has.

Do you think about that profoundly? like how how much can you destabilize the last sort of common source of truth most people experience on on the internet? >> Look, I think there are factors well beyond our control which is people today have a wider variety of sources than ever before. So I think you know people are getting content from so many different sources but within the world of Google I still think we deeply care about this uh being a source of knowledge and information.

I think there are objective experiences and subjective experiences, right? What's the capital of the USA? You know, it's not going to be custom created for anyone, right? These are objective things. Help me plan a nice trip to Montreal for a weekend. You know, naturally, the answers don't need to be the same for everyone, right? So, there is a continuum there. I do think the more uh you know so we deeply care about uh you know for certain categories of information we do still anchor around authoritative information to present as much of a objective view as as possible and and if it is health related queries we naturally tend to show uh more authoritative uh answers Then if you're saying, you know, what sweater should I go by?

Yeah, >> right. Like, >> can I can I show you a search result? A few years ago, I showed you a search result. I've been tracking this one for years. >> I always love amongst the 10 trillion queries. >> Yes. Well, this is this one's a favorite. >> We have a very scientific statistical way of doing this. >> I think this is important. I I I and I want to get into how consumers might be experiencing these products.

So, this is a search I just do all the time for best Chromebook. I'll just show it to you. There it is. Um, so it starts with an AI overview. It just very confidently tells you the answer and then there's a bunch of sponsored boxes and then the one that gets me is right below that. I believe the result is Reddit and it has a top result in Reddit. It's actually a different answer than the AI overview. Um, and then there's like the Times which has a different answer.

And you kind of scroll this and you're like the AI overview is telling me one thing. The first organic result is like fairly down the page and all of these are different answers. And I hear what you're saying about objective results and subjective results. what laptop should I buy is somewhere in the middle of those things, right? And I'm just curious how you think that experience for consumers is today in AI mode and where you think it should go.

Look, I think um I mean to be very clear in the world of AI over AI mode, we are organizing giving context but there are sources throughout. So you're still presenting organic content in a different way, right? So I mean there are links and sources you're giving to but there is an opinion to go with it too which is what you're uh you're talking about. Um I do think you know some of this will be iterative with users right I think um one of the great things we find with with search is it's easy to measure user satisfaction over 25 years we've learned to measure user happiness user satisfaction in a correlated way with improving the quality of the product not for short-term >> so that's why we do these long-term studies and if you get wrong gets get any experience wrong.

It shows in the metrics and we course correct. >> Yeah. >> Right. And and we pride on the ability to track this over long longer term be engagements sessions um you know returning to a topic the number of bounce backs they do. Uh so very very sophisticated way of looking at it. Uh I think in some areas like that I think the experience will continue to evolve. You're right. Do >> you think that experience is good today?

uh I think it's probably more opinionated than it should be for for the particular query you showed me. That's how that was my reaction as a user, right? So I think that's a scope for improvement is how I would say in a fast uh evolving space and you know but but I would expect that to happen in the product right like my intuition there is oh that's way more opinionated there is some chance that's person personalized to >> you may be testing it in a way that you're uniquely personalizing you are >> the reason that query might not be exactly representative though I think I think because I know how you review all these things like you know so there is some chance you're in the 0.

1% >> this is kind of why I'm asking about infinitely personalizable results right and I'm also asking if the experience is good because I I would bet that most people experience AI in Google search like all the time they they have that experience or they get kicked to AI mode and there's the stuff you can measure about user satisfaction and then there's how the public feels about AI >> and I think there's a pretty yawning gap in, hey, there's these user numbers going up and we're close to a billion users and the free products people are experiencing, how good they might be.

And then just the polling data, young people dislike AI. This is as objective as that gets. You can go ask them and they will tell you in measurable ways they dislike it. Eric Schmidt, the former CEO of Google, was booed at a college graduation speech he was giving. Seven in 10 Americans opposed data center construction. there's some gap between the product experiences people are having and how they feel about the technology.

Do you think you can close that gap? Do you think these products are good enough? >> I think it is a very profound topic and I I feel like you're linking the two. I think people's people rightfully so. Uh AI is the most profound technology uh uh humanity is going to deal with. It's happening at a very fast pace. uh I don't think humans are evolved for processing this much change and the rate of change particularly over the last few years is uh you know incredibly high and people rightfully so particularly with all the what they are hearing I I think people are people are trying to understand the future and in their personal context of their lives including you know what it means at an economic level and so on, right?

And so to me it really makes sense why there is anxiety around this technology. Um and and I think we should be very attuned to that and I think that's an important topic and I think that's much broader and bigger than the facets of what's happening. You know, people don't directly associate these two all the time. In some cases, yes, they're linked in certain ways. Wait, can I I think people experience the free versions of these models in various products.

I think they open their social media feeds and they see slop. I think they see headlines about all that stuff. I think they have the tools just sort of presented to them. The Gemini Sparkle shows up in all the Google products whether you ask for it or not. And then I do think you link it to, oh, they're asking for a lot of electricity and maybe my rates will go up and maybe all the jobs will go away and that's pretty scary.

And I I don't know if the value exchange is there. I >> I think these are good things to study. I I think you're being too specific on what's happening versus I'm just broadening it out and saying >> that might be part of the explanation. I do think there are other cheaper factors, too. I think >> Do you think it's just a marketing problem? I've heard your peers say that AI just has a marketing problem.

>> No, I don't think so. That's the point I'm making. I'm in fact arguing against it. I think it makes sense to me why people would feel concerns about it. Uh it feels natural to me. >> You know, you're people are standing and telling about how AI could make a lot of jobs go away, right? And like you know, why wouldn't you feel a sense of anxiety about it, right? And like you know, I think those are deeper uh deeper issues which we have to tackle as a society.

Uh that doesn't mean yes, there's concern about AI slop at a product level. All that are true. All I'm pointing out is it's a multi-layered problem and uh and but I don't think all the source of the data center angst is directly related to one specific experience you're having in a product or something alone like that. That's all the point I'm making right it is it is broader and bigger than that. I do think there's a lot of AI slop out there like I I feel it and so uh you know in an early phase of technology with the competitive dynamic that exist I think a lot of things are getting rolled out but we also see empirically how people are using these products in very deep ways and and and you know I think not all of it is if you go in a place where Whimo hasn't come and you just poll people talk about self-driving cars what you get in the polls is different from how they feel when they use these cars.

So technology also goes through these things. >> People have pretty negative views of the internet too by the way if you go pull right if you ask about the internet >> as they you know and and but it's a fabric of our lives and we have to adapt to it. So all of that is simultaneously happening I think. Uh it's a complex topic to me. It feels like people are worried about rising energy prices and if so they want to make sure these AI is not exacerbating the problem, right?

And that's a valid concern and I think >> uh and it's up to us as an industry to make sure if you're building data centers, what can we do to make sure we aren't contributing to that problem. So I think that I viewed as our responsibility not just us and and the government I think you know there's bipartisan concerns around some of the stuff. So for example there's a rate player rate payer pledge we all signed up to uh with a set of commitments maybe there needs to be more done.

Um I think all of that is uh goes goes hand in hand. I think it's important to talk about topics like skilling, workforce uh uh you know uh adaptations. I think we are driving a lot of change very fast through society. I think those end up being >> very important uh topics as well. So I think I think there's concerns at all those levels and I expect those concerns to be uh meaningful as we go forward. I I think it it is you know many years ago I said this is this is more profound than fire or electricity and so I've always felt that and so uh you know or think about deep fakes and how do you know what whether something is you know these models are getting better at simulating reality um this is why we working so hard we build synth ID we are open sourcing it we are pulling many many partners together and it's great for me to see the industry collaborate on a topic like this.

>> Cyber security is another good example. I I think these are all real concerns, right? So I I I do think as an industry we need to do more. Governments will have a stronger role to play. So all of the and the public needs to be involved. You cannot have the most consequential technology rolling out to the world in a way uh in democracies without the public citizens rightfully having a voice around it. >> Yeah.

So to me it it is uh uh really important that we go through this phase and like you know that's how we we learn how to adapt. >> Yeah, I'll leave it. I I think my argument is that the products do the marketing work and that that's my push. I I'm still waiting to see the the killer app for consumers that does it. I think we have the killer app for enterprise. I want to talk about the web though before I burn all >> one point.

There are times I've gone through a health journey in Gemini. It feels more than a killer app to me. better than anything I've ever done before. >> So, you know, so I think it's, you know, so people are going through those experiences, too. >> Yeah. I want to talk about the web, that you know, the health journey in Gemini that requires a rich data set of health information on the web to exist. Uh VO requires I I believe you're training Gemini and like YouTube videos, right?

Like VO requires the YouTube ecosystem uh to operate and to be fruitful to make new work in. Uh you and I have discussed the concept I call Google zero for many years. that you will stop sending traffic to the web. Uh you've disagreed with me that this is real >> very much so. >> Uh this last week >> hasn't happened in the last many years. >> Well, I'm just going to read you a quote. It's this time it's not me and I I didn't I didn't feed this to him.

Roger Lynch, the CEO of Condast, he did an interview with TBPN last week and he said I'm just going to read you a quote. Every year our search traffic was down more than we had forecast. So last year I told our teams assume there is no search. You have to have your businesses planned as if search is zero. That is Google zero. Kondas is saying we're assuming that search will go to zero. How would you respond to that?

Right? The the one of the biggest most iconic publishers in the world is saying I can't depend on this anymore. >> Look, first of all, the information ecosystem is so much broader beyond Google by by far. We see it in the data. You see it uh everywhere. So any publisher over the last 10 years, I would look at Verge and I would say where you were when you first took over, how much it's evolved since then, the types of content you make, where all you put that content out, how all you users are coming to you.

I think it's exceptionally dynamic and so it makes sense to me every publisher is adapting to this new world. We are you know adapting to the evolving world how users are consuming technology. We had to do when the world shifted from web to mobile. Uh we are shifting it from a world of mobile to uh people having ongoing conversations chatting with these products talking to them consuming it in voice and you know many different form factors.

Uh people are expressing preferences for various types of content. They're looking for userenerated content. they're looking for podcasts uh you know they they're looking for that through it all we are very committed to uh both meeting user expectations and also getting them to connecting them to what's out on the web and just even in the last year even since we've launched these features we've gone back we've added more links another area where behavior is changing many publishers rightfully so are thinking about subscription models >> sure but I'm just saying Kanye asked is saying I we're going to assume our search traffic is zero given the trends that we see.

Should they assume that? >> I mean this is you know I always view people understand their businesses better. I mean I I'm not in a position to tell uh you know such iconic publisher what they should think about their business or plan. uh you know I if they are building content which is high quality and people like it I expect us to be to reflect that in our products that much I can commit to them right so that's that's what my my you know so but I think more than any other company through this evolution we are working very hard to make sure people can get connected and we we are planning to do it in search in Gemini and that's still underpins a lot of what we do but there evolution like as the technology improves lowquality clicks get filtered out.

That's a natural evolution we see. We see it in our metrics. Bounce clicks are going down. >> And so those are all dynamics and people are going to a wider array of information. So you know and and and there are more people producing uh information than ever before. So that pie is growing faster than so all these dynamics are happening. It's a complex ecosystem but our commitment to you know making sure we reflect [snorts] the vastness and diversity of the content and we do think people want to connect ultimately uh to to these sources and but we are trying to meet them in those moments and people come with very different intent in very different moments.

One of the small features we have done but very important I think is if you've subscribed to something reflect that as a preferred source for you as a user but that's a new change which we didn't have before we are adapting to the fact that publishers are increasingly you know turning to subscribe offerings too >> publishers YouTube creators should they be able to opt out of training to get surfaced in search >> I mean this is a much broader topic uh I do think you know uh I I think both you know laws and regulations will have to evolve.

The courts will have to weigh in. It's important to protect uh copyright. It's important to protect fair use and you know and so you know these are constructs which will evolve dynamically uh through that. >> But do you want to be in a bunch of lawsuits with YouTube creators? You're in a lawsuit with publishers in the UK. The rhetoric in that lawsuit is getting increasingly heated. Google has said that the proposed solution is a quote free writer charter.

Every year the news media association sends me a quote to read you and you know they say Google calling us free riders is obviously ridiculous and or basic supply chain economics. If the value were really all on Google's side, they would simply allow publishers to op opt out. Do you want to be in that same fight with a bunch of creators on YouTube about opting out? Look, I um we are constantly you know as part of Gemini uh developing uh you know we did offer uh new opt out with Google extended and we are in conversations with publishers we'll take feedback and over times you know work through what makes sense and right you know obviously it is a we are not the only player in a a big ecosystem >> uh you know we are also trying to put out products which are competitive to other products out there right and I think uh all the publishers will also write an article saying the product is not very you know so it is more complicated than uh it looks and >> I just I think you have spent more time thinking about the web and the health of the web and the necessity of the web paint me the picture for what a healthy web looks like >> you know I actually search world >> one of the arguments I've made over time and I I actually see it playing around a little bit more I've started using the web more again over the last year year and a I think all these AI experiences have brought the web back more.

You know, there was a time when it felt like, you know, but I always felt the web would be vibrant. In fact, I've argued the web is going to be vibrant every year. And, you know, I would still argue it today. >> Uh, you know, the web is constantly evolving. I've never seen anything as dynamic as the web, which is why it's been such a privilege to be part of that evolution. I look at agents. that is the next evolution of the web which we will uh deal with and you know and I think it will evolve the web pretty profoundly um and there will be a lot of debates about what's okay what's not and uh but I think the web will continue to be people want to put out information connect with other people uh people want to be connected uh you know people aren't trying to be in a siloed world detached that doesn't reflect the reality of the human experience I I think the web is going to play as central a role on on it as ever before.

In fact, the universal commerce protocol if anything what we announced yesterday, I think people slightly are underestimating the impact of it. >> Can I juxtapose that? There are a lot of muscular announcements about new products, new features and aentic tools you can use and UCP and Amazon and Walmart and everyone we're going to use a new standard we're building for shopping and all that is very tangible. And then IO ended with Dennis Assabis, the CEO of DeepMind coming out and he he said this thing that I I have not been able to stop thinking about.

He said, "Google's cutting edge research and products will help unlock AGI's incredible potential for the benefit of the entire world. When we look back at this time, I think we will realize that we were standing in the foothills of the singularity. Can you tell me what it means to be in the foothills of the singularity?" >> DeS and I have had long deep conversations on this topic. I think in this context I think for him the advent of AGI is what he thinks of as the singularity and you know and I >> do you have a definition of AGI?

Have you debated? Do you have an agreement? >> We we we debate it a a lot. I think both Demis and I are very close to how we think about and uh you know think about we think about AGI in the you know in a there is a harder definition of AGI which is you know that uh that it has to be more comprehensively do uh you know the wide range of tasks including cognitive tasks uh in a way that's comparable. So I think we'll at some point actually put it out as a company I think and we are working on that but I think that that's what he's talking about in this context.

By the way I think it's important for us to understand that this technology is progressing very rapidly and you know later today I'll be going and spending time with our AI researchers and not just in in in our company but amongst the frontier labs. I think there's wide consensus that this technology you know AGI is uh people may quibble around like you know is it like 3 years five but the technologies sooner rather than later and so I think it's more important to communicate that because that's what you know to a earlier part of the conversation it's important that we as a society understand it and are preparing as much as possible.

I asked you this question that maybe the first time we ever talked about AI. Uh I asked you if language was intelligence and you know the the the progression here is we're layering more and more on LM. We're doing longer chains of reasoning. We're building harnesses. We're we're doing all this stuff and the but the core technology is still you know transformers. It's still the thing Google invented so long ago. Can LLMs get you to AGI?

Is that path clear? you know the the trajectory over the last three years has been incredible and looking ahead uh you know it looks the LLMs of today are you know have evolved in many ways too so we are constantly evolving it and and to me it's like asking like can computers get us to like the way you know the oneman architecture is still what powers most computers today but you know he won't recognize the modern uh one of our TPU pods right and like or maybe he would you know there's still a lot of commonality to it.

So I think the underlying technology keeps evolving so profoundly. Um I look at every year we have had major breakthroughs. I recently I mean you just saw his demo in anti-gravity and ability to prompt and create an operating system right and like you know >> it's very dangerous for Google to be able to make new operating systems. >> We'll have to we'll have to make sure we don't token max on uh creating.

Uh I'll give you that. uh it's fair but but you know that is the power of what these things are are doing right there are the top mathematicians in the world top physicists in these world who are interacting with these tools and using them uh in important ways but we still you know can these tools go fundamentally make novel scientific discoveries on their own not yet right and so it's both remarkable how much it's progressed um I do think it has uh uh um important evolutions to happen and then there are strong opinions out there in the world about you know uh you know you know how how much of a real understanding of the world you need uh you know to to to to take that next leap you know I am I'm pretty optimistic that we will continue to make a lot of progress >> yeah all right so give last question what is your timeline is it three years five years a >> you know I have always answered it this way I think that timeline doesn't matter because the rate of progress means you're dealing with ever more intelligent systems in a profound way.

So the way I would answer that question I 3 years from now whether you and I call it AGI or not doesn't matter because it'll be very very powerful and we have to prepare for it. >> Yeah Sunar this is great. Thank you so much for the time yet again. >> Yeah thanks pleasure. I'd like to thank Sudar Pachai for taking time to join me on Decoder and thank you for listening. I hope you enjoyed it. If you'd like to let us know what you thought about this episode or really anything else at all, drop us a line.

You can email us at decoder@theverge.com. We really do read all the emails or you can hit me up directly on threads or blue sky. If you like decoder, please share it with your friends and subscribe wherever you're at. Podcast. Decoder is a production of the Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. We'll see you next time.